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input, please?
my hand
so i've been thinking a lot about sexuality, and how it affects interpersonal relationships, and i'm wondering if i have a completely wrong view of the world.

to preface: doing a nice thing, when it's perfectly acceptable to NOT do the nice thing, makes me feel good. for example, as i approach the checkout lane at the grocery store, a self-checkout is being vacated. i've scanned and bagged a few items, and then i notice that there's a $5 in the change return. i could give the money to the cashier, in case somebody calls to claim it. i could keep it for myself, and you can't really say that's wrong. or i could wrack my brain, trying to picture the person who was leaving, and then i could race out to the parking lot, to find that woman with her small children, and give her back her change. when i do that, and she thanks me repeatedly, and is clearly grateful, i feel good about myself. i'm glad that i could help her out, and i'm proud of myself, and i just feel good, about having gone above and beyond what is required of me as a decent person. i think that for most people, doing something nice for somebody makes them feel good.

so... i know that things might have changed, since i was growing up 20 years ago, in a tiny little town. but based on what i learned back then, if you're straight, and somebody tells you that he's gay, you have innumerable options, most of which are considered acceptable to the vast majority of society. you can tell the gay he's going to hell, and lecture him about the evils of his ways, every time you see him. you can flat-out stop talking to him, even if he used to be your best friend. you can make fun of him, and spread the word to all your friends, to get them to make fun of him, too. you can refuse to let him be around your children, or raise a big stink any time you see him near any children. you can kick him out of your church, or your boyscout troupe, or your coffee club. if he's turned 18, and you're his parent, you can disown him, kick him out of your house, and shut him off from all financial and emotional support.
i know there might be some people who disagree with some of these options, but overall, they're acceptable choices.

so for me, as a gay, when i come out to a straight person, knowing that you have all those viable options... it's a huge deal to me if you instead choose to love and accept me. i think more highly of you for it, and i'm happy, grateful, and honored.
it's weird to think about, because the same thing can't happen in reverse. there is nothing, equivalent to this, that i can do for you. there's no way for me to return this favor.

and unlike a stranger at the grocery store finding you to give you your change, this isn't something that i'm just grateful for once. this nice thing that you did for me--it's not something i can ever forget. maybe it's not always in the very front of my mind... like we're watching an intense scene in a movie, and my focus is on that... but we get to a dull part, where my mind starts to wander, and right there in the back of my mind is that thought--that you know i am gay, and you've chosen to be here with me, anyway.

the thing about this is that if i take my thoughts as facts, that leaves us as intrinsically unequal. you're always better than me. i always owe you, a debt i can never repay.
if i can't ever see myself on equal ground with any straight person, ever, then that means i'm looking at it all wrong, because i'm not actually a lesser person, am i?

so i don't know. where did i go wrong?

i guess separate questions for the gays and the straights of my fl...
do you think about things this way? what do you feel when a straight person accepts your sexuality? do you move past it, to the point where it literally never crosses your mind, that they've accepted you? if so, how quickly do you move past it?

do you view the world this way? do you understand that you kind of have one up on the gays? do you feel good about yourself, if a gay person comes out to you and choose to accept them, and they're grateful? if so, do you eventually move past this, or do you continue to feel good about this choice every so often, or every time you see them, or what?

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You are not a lesser person than someone straight, just because you're gay. I would be completely honored if someone felt that they wanted/needed to come out to me. It would make me feel good, knowing that they confide in me in that way to be able to open up and talk to me about themselves.

I've actually had lesbian friends have crushes on me before, and it made me feel good! I'm not sure why...maybe it's because after all of these years..I've become a little bi-curious about being with a woman (although I would probably not admit this to the boyfriend!)

I`m not sure if its because I know so many Gay peoples But I do feel good when people come out to me but I do not go over it time and again. Once someone comes out to me its not their sexuality that I care about afterward its who they are thats more important to me.
I move past the who sexuality stuff. I do Joke with them and I do nag about being careful but its not a big deal.

I absolutely don't think that those are "acceptable" options. That's discrimination. Regardless of whether or not it's socially acceptable, it's still wrong to treat a person badly because of their sexual orientation, or any other thing. No one is doing you a favor by NOT discriminating against you or being a bigot. That doesn't make them deserving of more respect from you. What would you think if you re-read this post, but everywhere you see the word "gay" replace it with "woman" or "black"... do you not see how wrong that is? The fact is, this is the next big civil rights movement, and just because the majority may see those options you listed as viable doesn't make them right. What's sad to me in reading this is that it's clear that you have been convinced that you deserve that kind of treatment- otherwise you wouldn't idolize those that treat you as a person deserving of respect.

i know that it's discrimination to you, and you don't think the other options are acceptable... but there are other people who don't see it that way. who's to say that you're right, and they're wrong?

i think that it's wrong to have sex with animals. but several years ago, somebody on my fl posted a headline like, 'eww, gross!' and a youtube clip where they interviewed this girl who had sex with horses. i definitely think that's gross, too... but then i watched the clip. it was a really objective thing, where they just interviewed her and didn't judge her, and let her say what she had to say. she said that from a very young age, she can remember being drawn to animals, moreso than humans. she always felt like she couldn't bond with humans the way that other people could. as she grew older, this attraction spread to become a physical attraction, too. she knew that it was wrong and different, and she tried to fight that, and just do something normal with it, like be a typical animal lover... but at the same time, she didn't think she could ever find a human that she could connect with, the way she felt connected to these animals. then, she was on this internet message board, and she ended up meeting a guy who felt just the way that she did. they met and they hit it off, and now they're married, and they own a farm, with shetland ponies that they have sex with regularly. she says that they take better care of those animals than most people take care of their children, and that they love the animals, and that it's not abuse, because they never overuse an animal, and sometimes the ponies even get excited (sexually) when they see them coming, so she knows they like it...
so my first reaction was kind of like the headline to the post--wow, this is disturbing... but then somewhere in me, i realize that everything she's describing, i can relate to. i mean, not with the animals, but if you replace 'human' with 'boy' and 'animal' with 'girl', then i would be saying the exact same thing she's saying.

i still don't really think it's right to have sex with animals... but i feel almost hypocritical saying it, because here i am, expecting the world to accept me for who i am and who i love, but then agreeing with the world, when they say that who this girl is and who she loves is not ok. this is where i draw the line, as far as acceptable sexual deviation... but who am i to decide that?? the girl in the video probably draws the line right between having sex with animals and having sex with minor children. she probably thinks that anybody who discriminates against her or thinks less of her, because of the fact that she's banging a pony, is not a good person. and even the child molesters--most of them don't do it to be mean; they do it because they're innately attracted to children. i definitely think that's wrong and horrible--they're innocent children, and doing that to them is just unimaginably awful--you can scar a child for life! i think that even if you're born with those urges, you need to understand that it's wrong, and you need to fight yourself, to never act on those urges, EVER... but again, doesn't that seem a little hypocritical of me? i am attracted to girls, when nobody else is, and i want to be able to date them and marry them and kiss them and whatever, and i want society to accept me... but i'm telling this guy that what he feels is wrong and he shouldn't even CONSIDER acting on it?

so i'm glad that women and blacks are now considered ok. and i consider myself lucky, to be on the breaking edge of what is beginning to be considered acceptable... maybe 30 years from now, they'll come out with a will&grace show where will is a horse and grace is dating him, and that will start to be ok... or maybe 30 years from now, they'll go back to basics, shove gays back in their closets, and decide that only heterosexuals are acceptable. there will always be a line, and there will always be people on the other side of it, who don't feel like they deserve to be there. so every time i meet somebody who mentally puts me on the acceptable side of the line, i consider it a blessing. how easy would it be for them to put me in the same mental category that i use for the girl who has sex with horses?

this actually reminds me of a discussion people were having at work a little while back, about a girl in someone's class who said she thought it should be okay for family members to be together romantically as long as they were two consenting adults etc. And everyone was all like EW, that is SO not okay, etc, etc, and acting like this girl was a total psycho...and of course I didn't say anything given the way people were reacting, but I didn't necessarily see what was THAT wrong about it either, just from a moral standpoint, if you took having kids out of the equation. Same with the sex with horses thing...it would not be okay if the horses were being harmed, or if it was dangerous to people bc they could get some disease, but if it's purely a moral thing, who am I to judge what that person chooses to do?

I'm shocked that you would equate a consensual, adult, human relationship with what is essentially rape. Having sex with animals is NOT the same. This is not relative stuff here. That woman was violating those animals- there's no way to get their consent- and the fact that some were sexually responsive is not a way to tell that they "like it". Did you know that many rape/abuse victims struggle with feelings surrounding some pleasure that they felt? It happens all the time, where rape and abuse is accompanied by some feelings of physical pleasure. Still not okay. Same for a man who has sex with a child. All rape, all completely different than your desire to be with a woman.

Like I said before- these things are not relative. People can believe that a woman doesn't deserve a vote, but keeping that from her would be wrong. People can believe that a black person is not a whole person, and they'd also be wrong. People can believe anything they want to, you're right. They can even choose to treat other people badly. But those people that choose to treat you like an equal (because you ARE) do not deserve a medal just because they went against a hateful norm. I urge you to meditate on this and believe this about yourself- you are deserving of all the happiness and respect that anyone else is.

gracified took the words out of my mouth, that's exactly what I wanted to say when I read your journal entry. None of those options are acceptable, even if they're common. And it's not really a choice to accept someones sexual orientation, it's what that persons morals dictates is right rather than a personal favour to you. You shouldn't ever feel like you owe someone just for treating you like a decent person.

i guess see my reply to gracified above, then. i definitely understand that it's (generally) about the person's morals, and not about me. (if it's a family member, i sometimes expect them to go past their morals and like me anyway, since they've known me for so long...) i guess 'owe' wasn't the right word, because it's not really something i'm actively trying to repay them. i just kind of feel like the straight person is always standing on higher ground than me, because they were able to open their mind and accept something 'beneath' them on the sexual deviation scale, while i'm unable to do the same for people 'beneath' me.

When I'm friends with someone it's because we have something in common personality wise etc, whether they're gay or straight has never been a factor for me. I struggle trying to understand discrimination of any kind, especially of the type you've described above which is anything but acceptable! If someone wants to share something important with me, whether it's coming out or anything else, I'm flattered that they feel they can trust me and I hope that I can return their trust by being a good friend and being there for them whatever the circumstances.

You are not a lesser person, and certainly not because you're gay!

I think I've always felt this way as well, and perhaps because of it, I honestly don't even think I've ever been in a position to feel that a straight person was accepting me despite my sexuality. Because with all the straight people I know, I either never came out to them, or I already knew they were pro-gay to begin with before even knowing me, so that I knew accepting me was really no compromise on their part. But I have felt indebted to people for this same type of thing where I felt that people were accepting me "despite" my anxiety or other problems (usually someone I was dating), and that they were so much better than me, etc, and it never turned out well.

I'm even going to admit that I've felt like I wished I was in the other position, of being able to accept someone so I could feel good about myself...when I was in college, I distinctly remember being jealous of the straight allies at gay things...I felt that they were lucky bc they got to demonstrate what a good and accepting person they were by going to these things, whereas the gays could never be in this position because since they were gay no matter how much they were in it to help the cause of other gays as well, being in the group could never be a selfless thing, and was inherently self-serving. For a little while I tried to think of something else I could join and be selfless, where I wasn't "one of them", but I never really got the guts...

When I was in high school, hardly anyone was "out" and the ones that were ended up being shunned. We are taught to believe that gay is gross and unnatural. I don't remember when I stopped believing in that garbage and formed my own opinions that sexuality is something you are born with and not a choice.

I'm so fortunate that I live in an incredibly liberal and accepting city and work in an industry where most of my co-workers are gay. No one is really in the closet here so I don't have very much experience with people "coming out" to me. Everyone is already out. However, if someone were to come out to me, I would feel privileged that the person felt comfortable enough and trusted me to tell me.

this is one ive been thinking about a lot, due to my current situation. to be honest, i take it for granted that people will be ok with it if i came out. i mean, in this day and age its not a big deal. sometimes i dont feel certain people accepts my sexuality, they just pretend nothings different because they dont like it. i recently came out to a guy at work, he asked if i had someone special in my life and i said yes, lorna. he was a bit shocked and started referring to a work problem. then the next day he apologised to me because he thought i was kidding, then didnt know what to say. but hes really accepting so i dont really think about it now.

a lot of the time, i think straight ppl have 1 up on gay people, because they dont have to worry about pda or anything - it's just accepted.

Wow, when you listen to the lyrics, its? actually Snape there singing about, I listened, and it gave me chills wow
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